On this “Face the Nation” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Anthony Salvanto, CBS News executive director of elections and surveys
- Sen. Mark Kelly, Democrat of Arizona
- Kentucky Gov. Andy Beshear, a Democrat
- House Intelligence Committee chairman Rep. Mike Turner, Republican of Ohio
- Austan Goolsbee, president and CEO of the federal reserve bank of Chicago
- Anne Milgram, Drug Enforcement Administration administrator
Click here to browse full transcripts of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: Democrats head to their convention in Chicago, as inflation cools and the political back-and-forth over economic policies intensifies.
With the presidential contest lineup set to be formally locked in this week, both sides turn their attention to issue number one on the minds of the voters, the economy and inflation.
(Begin VT)
KAMALA HARRIS (Vice President of the United States (D) and U.S. Presidential Candidate): I will go after the bad actors.
(CHEERING)
(APPLAUSE)
VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS: And I will work to pass the first ever federal ban on price gauging (sic) on food.
DONALD TRUMP (Former President of the United States (R) and Current U.S. Presidential Candidate): A lot of people are very devastated by what’s happened with inflation and all of the other things. They say it’s the most important subject. I’m not sure it is, but they say it’s the most important sort – inflation is the most important, but that’s part of economy.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: The former president’s prescription is twofold.
(Begin VT)
FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Vote Trump and your incomes will soar.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And a new line of false attack on Vice President Harris.
(Begin VT)
FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Kamala went full communist. You heard that. She went full communist. She wants to destroy our country after causing catastrophic inflation.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will tell you why that’s wrong and how the voters see the candidates’ handling of the economy in our new CBS News poll.
Plus, we will talk to two key Democrats, Arizona Senator Mark Kelly and Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear.
Then: As U.S. negotiators appear optimistic about the prospects of a cease-fire deal between Israel and Hamas, Ukraine makes a new move to turn the tables on Russia.
House Intelligence Committee Chairman Mike Turner will be here.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation. Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
On the eve of the Democratic National Convention, our CBS News poll continues to show a very tight race in the 2024 presidential race. Vice President Kamala Harris is three points ahead of former President Donald Trump nationwide.
But in those seven key battleground states, which could go either way, the race is a dead heat.
Joining us with more is CBS News executive director of elections and surveys, Anthony Salvanto.
Good to see you here, Anthony.
ANTHONY SALVANTO: Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, what do voters tell you is most important heading into a pretty unusual Democratic Convention?
ANTHONY SALVANTO: So, let’s start by reminding everybody how we got here to what this is – only can be described as a very close race.
In fact, remember, the national vote doesn’t decide the presidency. It’s those battleground states. And if you unpack that and look at our estimates in each of those individual battlegrounds, what you see is close race after close race.
That is because, after Kamala Harris became the likely nominee, we saw a boost in Democratic enthusiasm, more Democrats saying that they were going to show up to vote. That boosts her poll numbers. And that continues to this day. We now see Democrats matching Republicans on that expressed likelihood to turn out.
So, when you watch the convention, look for them to try to keep that enthusiasm up. That’s number one.
Number two, on your question about defining Kamala Harris, so you see a third of voters say they still don’t know exactly what she stands for.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Which is interesting.
ANTHONY SALVANTO: Interesting, but maybe not surprising, right, because this is all so new, this reset race.
Well, that’s part of the defining the space in which that contest within the contest to define her is going to be fought. And the other part, I think, on that is, how similar or different is she to Joe Biden? Because Joe Biden was trailing in this race, right? But Democrats still like him.
So, we asked people, how similar is she? And the bulk of voters say they think she’s mostly similar in policies and views to Joe Biden, but not exactly similar. And she does better among the mostly group. So that’s that balancing act that Democrats are going to have going into the convention as well, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Now, I know you have been looking at the growing gender gap. So does having a female at the top of the Democratic ticket now make a difference for women voters?
ANTHONY SALVANTO: Well, I think it’s going to be a hallmark of this race. So, it’s more women voting for Harris, more men voting for Trump.
But the key thing is the why. First of all, you see more women feeling that Kamala Harris will be someone who fights for people like them than men say that. Men say that more about Donald Trump. That’s number one. Number two, you look at the broader views on how people see the push for gender equality in the U.S.
When people say it’s going too far, they vote for Donald Trump. When people say it hasn’t gone far enough, and especially among women, they’re overwhelmingly voting for Harris.
And then, number three, look at that key issue of the economy. There’s a couple of things here. One is that Harris trails Trump on the economy, on inflation, on the border, all key, important issues. But, among women voters, she does a little better on the economy and better than Joe Biden was doing.
So women are giving her a little more benefit of the doubt on that. And I think that starts to show you, if the Democrats can start to close that gap with Donald Trump on those key issues, that’s probably where they start.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You mentioned the border. How much of a challenge is it going to be for Kamala Harris to overcome some of that doubt?
ANTHONY SALVANTO: Well, this is important because, for all the movement we have talked about in this race, the things that haven’t changed, the border remains to the advantage of Donald Trump.
More voters think that it would be his policies that would slow or stop border crossings. And then you look at Harris’ connection to what people think the administration has done so far, and they see her as somewhat tied to it, but not necessarily a lot. Again, that’s part of that space in which they will be trying to define what’s her record been and where would she be going forward.
Another key issue, but I got to emphasize this, abortion, because that’s something you’re going to see the Democrats press a lot. And it also relates, of course, back to the gender gap and the women’s vote. Harris has an advantage on abortion, Democrats have. Three-quarters of women who think abortion should be legal say they’re voting for her.
So I think that’s something, again, that you want to press. And it’s that fight to define which issues are most important, and that’s certainly one that Democrats are going to press.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Fascinating.
Anthony Salvanto, thank you.
ANTHONY SALVANTO: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we go now to Arizona Senator Mark Kelly. He joins us from Chicago, where the DNC will kick off tomorrow.
Good morning to you, Senator.
SENATOR MARK KELLY (D-Arizona): Good morning, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you just heard some of our polling.
And if we zero in on your home state, a key battleground, we see that Vice President Harris is trailing Donald Trump by just one point. Donald Trump is expected to be visiting the border with Mexico in your state at some point in the coming days.
Our CBS polling shows 48 percent of registered voters believe that, if Harris wins the election, border crossings will increase. How much of a liability is that perception in Arizona?
SENATOR MARK KELLY: Well, Margaret, first of all, thank you for having me on.
With regards to the border, just like so many other issues, the contrast between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris could not be more clear. And Kamala Harris has supported our bipartisan border security bill that Donald Trump told Senate Republicans to run away from. So she’s been working on this issue.
Border crossings on the Arizona border are down substantially. She’s been focused on this issue, where the former president is trying to undermine our border security. I mean, he specifically told my Senate colleagues that they could not support this bill because he wanted to have this issue for the election.
I have never seen anything like this before my 3.5 years in the United States Senate. And I really – I think it shows that Kamala Harris is the leader that can bring us into the future. Donald Trump just wants to drag us back into the past.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you have any idea where the border ranks for Vice President Harris? Because she hasn’t talked about it much on the campaign trail to date. She has said she wanted to revive the legislation you just talked about.
SENATOR MARK KELLY: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: She also said something about comprehensive reform with an earned pathway to citizenship.
Is this a first-100-days priority for her?
SENATOR MARK KELLY: Well, I have heard her talk about it.
I was at an event in Glendale, Arizona, just outside of Phoenix the other day with my wife, Gabby Giffords, 15,000 people in the room, a lot of excitement. We discussed this specifically, myself and the vice president, about how the border is an important issue, especially for border states, the state of Arizona that I represent.
And it’s not only border security. I mean, Kamala Harris really wants to reform our immigration system. Our immigration system helps support our economy. And I expect that she will be focused on this after she’s elected president.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you need the rest of the Congress to agree to follow that path. And you know that that’s been an impediment to date.
SENATOR MARK KELLY: Well, that’s – that has with Donald Trump still in the picture. Once he is done and gone, I really believe that my Senate colleagues, the Republicans in the United States Senate, will get back on to this bill, because they negotiated it.
And this wasn’t meeting them…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR MARK KELLY: … like on the 50-yard line on this issue. This was meeting them on the 10-yard line on their side of the field.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SENATOR MARK KELLY: And we almost had it done, until Donald Trump said they were not allowed to vote for the bill.
So, I expect her to – to help us get this across the finish line. And she said she would sign it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, back during your 2022 Senate debate, you said Democrats don’t understand the border issue. You talked about how you had to stand up to President Biden yourself when he was creating what you called a bigger crisis by taking a – quote – “dumb move” by lifting Title 42 pandemic era restrictions without a backup plan in place.
Do you hold Vice President Harris responsible for those decisions as well? And how do you tell your fellow Arizonans to dismiss it, when you said that was a legitimate complaint?
SENATOR MARK KELLY: Well, back in 2022, when we had what I would consider a crisis on our southern border, I talked about this with my Senate colleagues, both Democrats and Republicans, and with the White House.
And it was those discussions that enabled us to get to the point where we were able to negotiate a bipartisan agreement. And it addressed so many different things. It was going to provide more Border Patrol agents, more Border Patrol pay, money to build facilities to temporarily hold migrants.
So, we – so, this legislation had a lot of things in effect.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And it didn’t get done.
SENATOR MARK KELLY: And it was a – it was a reasonable compromise.
It didn’t get done because of Donald Trump, not because of the administration.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But do you – when you are saying that – when you were saying Democrats don’t understand this issue, do you think Vice President Harris understands this issue?
SENATOR MARK KELLY: Yes, she does, absolutely.
And I think, when we talk about some of the Democrats in the United States Senate that weren’t really getting it in 2022, now they get it. And that’s why we were going to be able to provide – I think the plan was, we were going to provide about 40 votes, the Republicans about 20. We would get the legislation passed.
And then we could move on to some of the other stuff that Vice President Harris has talked about, which is comprehensive immigration reform.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR MARK KELLY: But, again, Donald Trump, he just wants to talk about this issue.
And so do my Senate Republicans, by the way.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
SENATOR MARK KELLY: Right after J.D. Vance became the nominee, what did he do? He went down to the southern border in Arizona to take a picture.
He doesn’t actually want to fix this. Kamala Harris will fix this problem.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Let me ask you about Ukraine. I know you are very focused on that war.
Their forces launched this bold incursion into Western Russia, into this Kursk area. Are you comfortable with U.S. weapons being used on Russian soil?
SENATOR MARK KELLY: Well, Margaret, yes, I am at this point.
The Ukrainians were illegally attacked by Vladimir Putin. He – I mean, he is intentionally killing women, children, old people. It was an illegal invasion. This incursion, I will just – let’s characterize it that way for now. I don’t think the Ukrainians want to intentionally hold Russian territory for a long period of time.
But this really set Putin back on his heels. He has always tried to characterize himself as somebody that is going to protect Russia. I think his citizens are seeing the results of what he has done in Ukraine, that now they are somewhat at risk.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think…
SENATOR MARK KELLY: A hundred and thirty thousand Russians have had to leave, leave their homes.
And, at this point in this conflict, I think the Ukrainians did something unpredictable that could really change the tide of how this conflict is going to play out.
MARGARET BRENNAN: A number of key former officials, including the former supreme allied commander General Breedlove, wrote a letter to President Biden last week calling on him to lift restrictions on the U.S. weapons provided to Ukraine to allow them to strike legitimate military targets in Russia.
Would you echo their calls?
SENATOR MARK KELLY: Well, Margaret, those restrictions, some of them have already been lifted.
And since the – since the invasion now over two years ago, we have periodically, as we should, reevaluate how we’re going to conduct ourselves with regards to the Ukrainians’ use of the security assistance that we provide them. And I think it’s appropriate to continue to look at what their needs are, how can we make adjustments, what new weapons systems are we going to provide to them?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR MARK KELLY: They just recently got F-16s. My hope is that, over time here, the – the Ukrainians learn how to better deploy that weapon system, and we’re going to see some positive effects from F-16s on the battlefield.
You know, the same is true for ATACMS and HIMARS and these other weapons. So…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR MARK KELLY: So, periodically reevaluating what we allow them to use is – is the appropriate thing to do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, Senator Mark Kelly, thank you.
Face the Nation will be back in one minute. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re joined now by the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Ohio Republican Congressman Mike Turner.
Good morning to you, sir.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER (R-Ohio): Good morning. Thanks for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Good to have you here in person.
I want to talk about the election meddling that we have been hearing is under way. U.S. intelligence and the Justice Department say Iran is working to influence the outcome of the next election. The FBI is investigating phishing attempts at people associated with both the Trump and the Harris campaigns.
But we know, in 2020, the supreme leader had sanctioned Iran interfering to hurt Donald Trump in that election. Are you satisfied with what the social media companies and U.S. intelligence are doing now?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: You know, I think what’s missing here is a response from the administration.
You have Microsoft coming forward and saying that the Trump administration has been, that – excuse me – the Trump campaign had been hacked. The administration, the Biden administration, had identified that Iran was attempting to do this, including spinning misinformation.
But, even further, the administration has acknowledged that Iran had – was executing a plan to assassinate Donald Trump, even alleging that an individual they have in possession was part of that plot.
Yet you don’t really have a response from the administration. Most national security experts resoundly agree that killing a presidential candidate would be an act of war from a foreign power. Well, certainly, attempting…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, they have surged…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Attempting is certainly – is…
MARGARET BRENNAN: … protection.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: … is – attempting, though, does at least require a response. And, in this, the administration is – both on the hacking side, on the misinformation side, and on the alleged attempt on Donald Trump’s life, is not holding Iran accountable.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, they…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: There’s no red lines.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you don’t count the arrest and prosecution of the individual who was recruiting assassins…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: This is not a law enforcement issue, right? This is not a law enforcement issue.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes, but…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: This is a nation-state…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: … that the administration has identified as having executed a plot to try to assassinate Donald Trump and is undertaking misinformation, election interference…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: … including hacking.
This requires a response to the administration.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have oversight of the intelligence community. You can’t talk about classified information.
But are you suggesting here that there aren’t even covert actions being taken against Iran?
(CROSSTALK)
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: I’m saying that there is – there is – there is not a response that impacts Iran or that has a deterrent effect or holds them accountable.
And that, of course, results in increased activity and an increased emboldening of Iran to meddle in our elections and to, I think, have people at risk in our country.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What would you want to see, sanctions or…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: At least – well, you – of course, you have to start with a statement by the administration. And then also you could go to, there need to be statements of red lines and understanding of what actions would occur.
And then there does need to be action. I think the administration needs to look at what is their response going to be, now that they’re openly saying that they have in custody an individual they allege was part of an Iranian plot to assassinate Donald Trump.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm. And – and those other officials associated do still receive protection largely from diplomatic security and – and others. So…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: So, his – in addition to his Cabinet members that have been threatened.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. So the administration is approving that, though, is my point.
But on what the U.S. intelligence community is assessing about interfering in the election, the director of national intelligence did brief reporters and said that Moscow has not changed its prior preference of candidates, which in 2016 and 2020 was Donald Trump.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, I…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is enough being done on that front, in terms of that level of meddling, which is expected to continue as well?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: I think what we’re seeing here, especially on the part of Iran, is that they understand that Donald Trump is anti-Iran and he recognizes that a strong America is a safer world.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Now, the – if you look further as to meddling and what Russia is doing, I think, in this instance, you know, Trump has certainly indicated that – that he wants to bring an end to – to the conflict between Russia and Ukraine.
And it certainly isn’t an anti-Ukraine position, but it certainly is a stronger America position. And you were just talking with Senator Kelly about the restrictions that are being placed on Ukraine by the Biden administration in this conflict.
Those certainly are troublesome and do result in this sort of status quo of – can be a game of attrition on Ukraine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, to the point, in terms of lifting further restrictions, which I think he favored, I know you advocate this as well.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Absolutely.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But how much of this is based on the imperative that there are five months left of the Biden administration?
And the Trump/Vance view is – quote – “that it is not in America’s interest to sustain that war.” Do you need to surge in the next five months because J.D. Vance, who I have interviewed many times about this, is clear that he is not for continued support financially?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, no one is – is for this – this war continuing, but I certainly fully support Ukraine.
And I think a concern with the Biden administration’s restrictions, also needing to get them modified, is, Ukraine is – is finally in a position where they can hold Russia accountable. If they can – they have now entered into Russian territory. If they can use long-range weapon systems to hold accountable Russia’s valid military targets that are attacking Ukraine, we can change the dynamics on the ground.
You can’t continue to just have a front line in Ukraine, where Russia is outproducing weapon systems that Ukraine – from – from Ukraine has and have this – this turn out well for Ukraine.
In this instance, if the Biden administration’s restrictions are lifted, we also know, even if there is a Harris administration that follows, that – that Ukraine’s support would be there, the ability to – to hold Russia accountable would be there.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have said you are concerned about aggressiveness from authoritarian nations that are putting democracies at risk.
Donald Trump recently called Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin lovely individuals, and he said this on Thursday:
(Begin VT)
DONALD TRUMP (Former President of the United States (R) and Current U.S. Presidential Candidate): I’m not looking to be bad to Iran. We’re going to be friendly, I hope, with Iran, maybe, but maybe not. But we’re going to be friendly. I hope we’re going to be friendly. But they can’t have a nuclear weapon. They can’t have a nuclear weapon.
And we were all set to make sure that they don’t have a nuclear weapon, because, once they do, it’s a whole different world.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m sure you would be critical of Democrats saying they want to be friendly with Iran.
What do you make of the mixed messaging there from Mr. Trump?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, I don’t think it’s really mixed – mixed messaging.
To – to acknowledge some of the strengths of your adversaries is – is not having weakness on your own part. In fact, you know, Donald Trump with the maximum pressure campaign on Iran, put the most pressure on Iran that they have had in any administration, both economically, militarily.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And it didn’t stop their nuclear problem.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: They were – they were on the ropes. Actually, they – they – they had…
MARGARET BRENNAN: They restarted it.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: In their – in their processes, they had slowed.
What we see now with this administration, they might have – they might declare themselves a nuclear weapons state by the end of this year. With the – reports have been – news reports have been out stating that there’s – there’s a possibility…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Are you saying that the supreme leader has changed his conclusion on this?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: There is a – there is a possibility, with the advances that have been made under the Biden administration’s policy, that Iran could – reports are out that Iran could declare itself a nuclear weapons state by the end of the year.
If – and you would have not have had that…
MARGARET BRENNAN: But that conclusion hasn’t been made, has it?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: No.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: But you – you would not have had that under the Trump administration’s maximum pressure campaign.
The flexibility and freedom that they have had…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: … under the Biden administration has given them the ability to both try to influence our elections…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: … actively…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: … try to undertake a plot to assassinate Donald Trump…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: … and to continue their nuclear weapons and their nuclear enrichment programs.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
We have got to leave it there, Chair Turner.
We will be right back.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Thank you. Thanks.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: CBS News will be covering the Democratic National Convention every night starting tomorrow through Thursday.
Tune in for our prime-time coverage starting at 8:00 p.m. Eastern on our 24/7 streaming network. Coverage will then continue on our broadcast network at 10.
We will be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will be right back with Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear, the head of the Chicago Federal Reserve Bank, Austan Goolsbee, and the DEA chief, Anne Milgram.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION.
We go now to the Kentucky governor, Andy Beshear, who joins us this morning from Frankfort.
Good morning, Governor.
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR (D-KY): Good morning. Thanks for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we know that you are an advocate for Vice President Harris. And as a Democrat who runs a red state, how would you advise Democrats to stop losing support in rural areas?
ANDY BESHEAR: Well, I’d advise them to – to, first of all, focus on those things that matter most to people when they wake up in the morning. When people wake up in the morning, they’re not thinking about this presidential election, they’re thinking about their job and whether they make enough to support their family. They’re thinking about their next doctor’s appointment for themselves, their kids. They’re thinking about the roads and bridges that they drive. They’re thinking about the school they drop their kids off at. And they’re thinking about the public safety in their community. That’s why I’m so excited about the vice president’s new economic plan. I think it goes right to the heart of how you support your family. With two tax credit extensions or expansions that will help the middle class. It goes to affording health care in capping overall pharmaceutical costs. The – the bipartisan infrastructure law further helps us on the roads and bridges we travel.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
ANDY BESHEAR: So, very excited to support the Harris-Walz team. They’re going to have a big victory.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, to get many of those things done, the – the vice president would need a congress to work with her. So, those aren’t quick fixed necessarily.
But on the Harris economic plan that you mentioned, there was also this federal ban on price gouging on food and penalties for companies that exploit crises. President Obama’s top economist, Jason Furman, was critical, saying, “the good case scenario is price gouging is a message, not a reality, and the bad case scenario is that this is a real proposal. You’ll end up with bigger shortages, less supply and ultimately risk higher prices and worse outcomes for consumers.”
Do you know how this would work?
ANDY BESHEAR: I do, because I’ve been an attorney general just like the vice president. I pursued price gouging statutes and their violations when it comes to the price of gas if Kentucky, and we won. And ultimately returned millions of dollars to our people.
This isn’t about trying to price fix. It’s just making sure that the economy is operating the way it should. That this is really supply and demand, which we all respect. It’s no different than what Teddy Roosevelt did in breaking up monopolies. It’s just making sure we have the right regulations and tools in place to make sure everybody is playing the game fairly and by the rules.
BREAM: So, it sounds like you’re just talking about anti-trust policy, but – which is something J.D. Vance actually supports. But Republicans, as you know, are accusing Harris of advocating for price controls, like in communist countries where the government sets a price rather than the market place. You just said it’s not price control. But can you explain then how you define what an excessive price is if you don’t have a benchmark?
ANDY BESHEAR: Well, first, these are types of statutes that exist in state law. The Texas attorney general has prosecuted price gouging violations. And I don’t think anyone is going to claim that – that he is into price fixing and neither is the vice president. This has to be evidence-based.
Ultimately, you bring an action and you have to prove it in court. So, you have to have the evidence that this is beyond supply and demand. That this is people taking advantage of us. Certainly, we’ve seen it after national disasters in red and blue states. It’s just making sure that coming out of the pandemic, or in difficult times, that people aren’t increasing the price of food just to make a bigger profit.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
ANDY BESHEAR: All it is, is making sure that capitalism stays within the guardrails. And it’s not new. We’ve been doing this in the states for a long time.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you also mentioned there some of the federal support for – for efforts already underway, including, by the way, electric vehicles, which I know Kentucky you talked quite a lot about attracting some of these plants there, $11 billion invested in EV facilities. You’ve got at least three expected to open in 2025. What’s the breakdown there of union versus non-union jobs?
ANDY BESHEAR: Well, all of the facilities are being built with union labor. Thousands upon thousands of jobs over the course of that construction which has taken years. Now, when the – the Ford Escape plants open, that wouldn’t be union labor because of an agreement reached between Ford and the UAW, between CEO Farley and Shawn Fain. And we respect those agreements and their negotiations.
Now, what it did mean is that 10,000 plus UAW workers in Ford’s two other facilities in Kentucky got better wages, better benefits, a better life for their family. So, we’re excited about how the union and the company were able to come together to reach an agreement that works for everybody. And that’s what we want to see, right? We want to see companies continue to invest because we need them, but we want them to be good jobs that support our families. And I think that’s the outcome we got here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ve seen this interesting phenomenon though where – where red states, often right-to-work states, like Kentucky is, have benefited from the these federal investments and subsidies. But we don’t really hear Democrats talking about that too much.
Do you think that companies are opening plants in right-to-work states like yours because the labor is simply cheaper?
ANDY BESHEAR: I have never heard an employer talk about right to work in Kentucky. In fact, we’ve opened a number of facilities that have union workers. We see more and more companies using the building trades, union labor, to build their facility. In fact, union membership has gone up in Kentucky each of the last two years. And certainly our building trades are busier than they have ever been. This may be the golden age of union labor in Kentucky despite having those terrible statutes on the books.
But my job as governor isn’t to whine or complain about the statutes we have, but to go out and to build the best lives for our people. And certainly the bipartisan infrastructure law, the Inflation Reduction Act, the be (ph) program, they require reasonable wages where employers immediately turn to labor, to organized labor, because they know they’re the most skilled and the very best. And I’m now seeing better interaction between companies and organized labor than I have in decades. It’s really exciting.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And I know you’ll be talking about labor and its role at the convention later in week.
Governor, thank you very much for your time today.
We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We go now to Austan Goolsbee, the president and CEO of the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. Before taking on that a-political role, he had previously served in the Obama administration.
Good morning to you.
AUSTAN GOOLSBEE (President and CEO, The Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago): Hi. Great to see you again, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, President Goolsbee, “Barron’s” had a piece yesterday saying that the most consequential event this fall won’t be the U.S. election, it won’t be a war in the Middle East, it will be the Federal Reserve’s decision in September to lower interest rates for the first time in more than four years.
Is that a certainty? Do you think it is time to lower rates?
AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: Well, I don’t think it’s a certainty and I – I don’t like, as you know, tying our hands ahead of time when we’ve got a lot of data to come in and everyone on the committee is going to get to speak their piece. And it’s a – it’s a committee decision.
We try, as the Fed, to make clear what our reaction function is. If you want to call it that. I invite everybody to go read the statement of economic projections which every – in our – in our world colloquially we call it the dot plot where we outline every quarter, what do the members of the committee individually think will be the appropriate policy for each of the next three years and what economic conditions do they expect to correspond with those.
And we’ve been making clear for quite a while what economic conditions would be appropriate for us to cut rates, for us to hold rates where they are, and things like that. And I do think that the – we set an interest rate more than a year ago at a high level because we’re fighting inflation. And the economic conditions today are very different than they were when we set the rate at this level.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, interest rates and supply of housing impact what consumers end up paying for shelter. What is going to bring down shelter costs? Because that was such a big part of inflation number that we just saw.
AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: Well, look, Margaret, you know as much as anybody about this. The biggest puzzle that we’ve seen in the inflation numbers has been the persistently high inflation rate on shelter and housing. And we – we can get a little mixed up because that official measure is very – is a very lagging indicator of what the actual housing price conditions are on the ground. So, our puzzle has been why the market rents inflation rate has come down, but that hasn’t yet been reflected into the official backward looking housing inflation.
So, one of the things that’s going to bring it down is just, we’re going to keep getting more data, and that’s going to get incorporated into the official series. But the second is the interest rate, how it works, how the Fed stabilizes business cycle is when it tightens the screwdriver, the interest rate goes up and the demand for housing goes down. And so, some of those interest rate sensitive sectors of the economy, weakness in that is – – is partly how the monetary transmission takes place and the inflation rate softens.
And it’s worth noting that last year inflation fell by almost as much as it has ever fallen in a single year in the United States.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: And that happened without a recession, which is unparalleled. So, we’re hoping to continue some of that as we go through ’24.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That – that’s part of the delicate dance the Fed is doing here.
Bank of America’s CEO was with us last weekend on FACE THE NATION, and he told us his economists are no longer predicting a recession, but he did say there’s a risk if the Fed does not start to move rates down.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN MOYNIHAN (CEO, Bank of America): They’ve told people rates probably aren’t going to go up. But if they don’t start taking them down relatively soon, you could dispirit the American consumer. Once the American consumer really starts going very negative, then it’s hard to get them back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARGARET BRENNAN: He also said corporations aren’t using their lines of credit due to the higher rates. What do you make of that caution?
AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think it’s a valid caution. When rates are this high, if you take a measure of how tight the Fed is, as just what’s the rate minus what’s the inflation rate, when you set a rate high like we have and hold it there while inflation falls, you’re actually tightening. Credit conditions are getting tighter. And when we go out in the Chicago seventh district, you can hear from business leaders and community leaders around the district that credit conditions on them are tight. When you bank loans and what the rates they pay and credit availability is right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: So, I think he’s right. I think you’ve got to have a caution when you see small business defaults rising like they have been rising, when you see consumer credit delinquencies, credit card delinquencies rising like they’ve been rising, those are warning signs.
Now there’s – there’s some others that are more positive. But they’re – they’re definitely of concern. And if you keep too tight for too long, you will have a problem on the employment side of the Fed’s mandate.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, a recession for you, is it off the table?
AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: No. Look, you’ve seen the table at the FOMC meetings.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I know.
AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: A huge table.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I know.
AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: Everything is always on the table. With – there’s a possibility of recession. The last GDP growth number was higher than expected. So, that was a – that was one of the bright spots. But you always got to worry about every contingency. That’s the job of the central banker.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you as well about what’s happening with what people pay at the grocery store. The San Francisco Fed found that corporate markups, what some might call price gouging, are not a primary contributor to inflation. Do your economists agree?
AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: Well, look, this – this has turned into a campaign election kind of battleground, so I’m – the Fed is not political. We’re not in the elections business.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m not asking you a political question.
AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I’m not going to get into that.
I – I think that it’s worth remembering that there are dynamics at play. That is over time wages tend to move slower than prices. So, if some shock hits, prices go up, then wages go up. Then prices come down, then wages come down.
And so, if you look at any given moment, that markup, sort of the difference between what’s happening to prices and what’s happening to cost, that can vary a lot over the business cycle. So, I just caution everybody over concluding from any one observation about markups.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Are tariffs inflationary?
AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: It sounds funny to say it depends what you mean by inflationary. Tariffs raise prices. But in terms of something that – inflationary is about the rate of growth of prices. And one-time increase in costs will raise prices but is not an extended inflationary thing. So, whether you want to call that inflationary or not, they – they raise costs and they raise prices.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Austan Goolsbee, we want your perspective as one of the top economists in the country. I know you left politics behind and I’ve made you a little uncomfortable by asking you some of these questions, but we want to bottom line it.
AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: Yes, look, you’re the – you’re the smartest in the business, Margaret. And any – any time you want to talk Fed mandate, inflation or employment, I’m – I’m always – I’m always up for it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, Austan Goolsbee, thank you for your time.
We’ll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Fentanyl and other so-called synthetic opioids are the main driver behind overdose deaths in the United States according to the CDC. But in light of the recent death of actor Matthew Perry from an overdose of ketamine, a controlled substance that can be used in clinical and therapeutic settings, there are growing concerns over the abuse of that drug as well.
Joining us now to discuss it all is the head of the Drug Enforcement Administration, Anne Milgram. She’s in New York this morning.
Welcome back, Administrator.
ANNE MILGRAM (Administrator, U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration): Thank you for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you just had these arrests this week. As we outlined, ketamine is an anesthetic, but it can be used to treat depression in times. When you announced these charges, you said this was a case of where substance abuse began in a doctor’s office and then it ended up in the street. How common is the abuse of ketamine now?
ANNE MILGRAM: That’s right, Margaret. So, in the case of Mathew Perry’s death, we announced charges again the five individuals who we believe are responsible for that. And again, what happened there is, it started with two unscrupulous doctors who were violating really – we charge violating their oath, which is to take care of their patients. And instead,, supplying Matthew Perry with enormous quantities of ketamine in exchange for huge amounts of money. And then it switched to the street, where Matthew Perry was buying the ketamine from two drug traffickers on the streets of Los Angeles.
And so this, unfortunately, is a tragic (INAUDIBLE) that we have seen thinking back to the opioid – at the beginning of the opioid epidemic where many Americans became addicted to control substances in doctor’s offices and through medical practitioners that then turned into street addiction as well.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, exactly to that point, it sounds a bit like the beginning of the opioid crisis when we were talking about pill mills. Now you are seeing ketamine clinics pop up for – and claim to be treatment for depression and other things. Do they need to be more regulated? How do you get your arms around this?
ANNE MILGRAM: So, one of the things that’s important to recognize – so ketamine is a controlled substance. And it is – it is – it has a high potential, obviously, for addiction and other challenges. The FDA regulates the medical prescribing of ketamine. And so they have approved it as an anesthesia. They have approved it through a nasal spray for the treatment of depression. And so they regulate the medical side of this.
At DEA, what we’re focused on, we’re focused on doctors, nurse practitioner, anyone who is essentially diverting legitimate controlled substances from the normal medical practice to do what we saw happening here, where doctors, these doctors, were not evaluating Matthew Perry, they were not supervising injections, they were leaving behind vials of ketamine for Matthew Perry to be injected by his assistant.
And so, again, we’re focused on the control substance side. But we, every single day, are targeting and investigating doctors, nurse practitioners, others, who are violating this duty of trust to their patients by over prescribing medicine or prescribing medicine that isn’t necessary. And here, again, what we’ve alleged is that these doctors were seeking a huge payout from Matthew Perry. They charged him around $50,000 over the course of one month to supply ketamine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Wow.
Fentanyl is also used in medical settings. But it also happens to be the leading cause of death for Americans between the ages of 18 and 45 according to the DEA. That is a stunning statistic.
We have heard a lot about this on the campaign trail. We have heard President Biden talk about sanctioning, you know, Chinese entities, about charges against Mexican cartels doing business with Chinese groups, and yet we are still hear about a high degree of overdoses due to fentanyl. Why is it so hard to crack down on?
ANNE MILGRAM: So, Margaret, you’re – you’re right in pointing this out, that in 2022 we lost 107,941 American lives to fentanyl and methamphetamine. And this is a tragic, tragic situation we’re facing where fentanyl is widespread in every single community across the United States from coast to coast and everywhere in between. And what we are seeing is that the cost of manufacturing fentanyl, for the two cartels in Mexico that are responsible, the Sinaloa and Jalisco cartels, is pennies. And so this is the cheapest drug we have ever faced. And the only limit on the amount of drugs that can be made are the chemicals that are being sourced by the cartels from China and essentially the production which again costs pennies for these two cartels to make.
So, we are fighting what I would argue is the greatest threat in narcotics that we’ve ever faced. And at DEA we’re focused on saving American lives. One of the core ways we’re doing that is working across their entire network. Both of those cartels are operating in more than 50 countries around the globe. And we’re targeting every part of that global supply chain, from the Chinese chemical companies and Chinese nationals, who charged last year and this year, to the Mexican cartel leaders, manufactures, to the people that are selling drugs in the United States on behalf of the cartels and then the money laundering who are working for the cartels.
In 2023 we took action across that entire network.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
ANNE MILGRAM: We’ll do the same in 2024. And so we have a strategic plan we’re working to take apart these networks. And we’re started to see progress. But there is a lot more work to be done because of how addictive fentanyl is, how tiny quantities can kill someone. And for the first time the cartels are hiding fentanyl in other drugs.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
ANNE MILGRAM: They’re making them look like real prescription medicines, which are all fentanyl and filler.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
ANNE MILGRAM: And so this is just a dramatically changed landscape that we’ve now pivoted to address and take head on. And every day we’re fighting to save lives by defeating those two cartels and stopping fentanyl.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Mexico – Mexico’s president has said he won’t fight the Mexican drug cartels. His slogan is hugs not bullets. The new incoming president who gets sworn in October 1st has said she’s follow the policies of her predecessor. That’s going to be a big problem for your enforcement, isn’t it?
ANNE MILGRAM: So, we have to work across the globe to stop this threat, to stop Americans from dying. And so again we’re focused on – we’ve made a number of criminal charges in China. We’ve also begun, since last November, when President Biden met with President Xi, we started to have engagements again.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
ANNE MILGRAM: We’ve reengaged with the Chinese ministry of public security. Recently, we took down a case in Los Angeles where we connected – we basically showed that a Chinese money laundering organization was working directly with the Sinaloa cartel.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
ANNE MILGRAM: In China, they made one arrest. And in Mexico they made one arrest.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
ANNE MILGRAM: It’s that kind of work together that will – will help us to have an impact and to stop this threat.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Administrator Milgram, we’ll track your progress.
We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s it for us today. Thank you for watching. For FACE THE NATION, I’m Margaret Brennan.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)